Comments on entry #58425

On Trivial Pursuits

Monday the Eighth of February, Twenty Ten

Incidentally, I've just read the funniest sentence in the whole series.

Hang on—is it just me, or is Ireland not independant in the Potterverse? There's no Irish Minister of Magic in the Top Box at the Quidditch World Cup and Cornelius Fudge presents the Cup to the Irish team. But even more damningly, the headquarters of the British and Irish Quidditch Leagues are clearly stated to be in the Ministry of Magic in London! What's the deal, J.K.?

Although, when you think about it, this may not be what I'm thinking. What if magical!Ireland became independant of magical!Britain long before 1922—or was never subjugated by British wizardry at all—and this apparent union was a peaceful and voluntary one, like the European Union? Really, you would think there would be more of a postnationalist movement in the wizarding world than in the Muggle world, given that wizards are a small global subculture that exists in isolation from the Muggle world. After all, bigotry in the Potterverse seems to be mostly limited to anti-Muggle and anti-part-human/non-human sentiment (with a few exceptions, like a crack on Angelina's hair). But you don't really see that in the books. Of course, the impetus for the peaceful union of Europe (an completely unprecedented event in human history) was World War II, and although the rise of Grindelwald was going on at around the same time, one doesn't get the sense that it brought magical!Europe to its knees like the first half of the twentieth century did to Muggle Europe.

(Hang on—what happened to the wizards who were drafted in WWII, and all the other various Muggle wars? Did they just dodge the draft? Or did the Ministry pull strings? Man, can you imagine Winston Churchill being told that the hundreds of incredibly powerful magic-users in Britain were just sitting this one out? I guess the Minister at the time might have been able to convince him with the argument that if British wizards joined in, German ones would too, and it would be Muggle communities that suffered. Though I can't believe that Hitler—who was, after all, a big fan of the occult—would have accepted that argument, especially as the war was coming to its end and he was willing to do anything to prevent defeat.)

posted by Martin Marks at 12:52 at night // twenty-two comments


Dig out go to work

comment by the old feller // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 5:07 at night

Well, I got the impression that during WWII, the British wizarding community was working to fight the Dark Wizard Grindlewald, and I'm guessing the muggles in charge would understand that stopping that menace was of the utmost importance. And also, since muggle and wizard events seem to run parallel, I imagined Grindlewald's influence made Hitler more powerful, even if they weren't officially linked. Also, we know the British muggle PMs know about the wizards, but we haven't ever seen whether foreign wizarding officials come out to their muggle counterparts. As for the funniest sentence, I've got the British edition of OotP because it came out when I was in France, so my pagination is different. Help?

comment by Julia // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 9:45 in the morning

Since it works best in context, I'll just say to read starting from Educational Decree Number 27, which is in chapter 26. It's about one page after that.

comment by Martin // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 1:31 in the afternoon

My favoriteline from Book V was when all the kids were trying to get Harry to teach the DA and Neville says something about "and that year you found the philogist's stone" (UK edition; the "soucerous stone" in the US version was way less funny.)

comment by Tori // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 1:38 in the afternoon

Is it to do with professor Trelawney?

comment by Julia // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 2:10 in the afternoon

That's the one. It might just be me, but I crack up every time I get to that point.

comment by Martin // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 2:48 in the afternoon

No, it's totally funny.

comment by Julia // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 3:59 in the afternoon

But Julia, even if Rowling managed to weasel her way out of the WWII issue, I don't think it's a general answer to the question. Do powerful Dark Wizards just happen to come along every time there's a devastating European war? What happened in WWI, or the Napoleonic wars, or the Thirty Years War?

comment by Martin // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 6:42 in the evening

Maybe it is assumed that the wizards are fighting the same war their muggle counterparts are, but they are fighting against each other.

comment by Tori // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 8:05 in the evening

But Tori, that assumes that the political worlds are identical—which, as I pointed out, seems to be untrue. Certainly the Anglo-Irish War, the Irish Civil War, and the Troubles must have been pretty different if the Ministry of Magic rules both Britain and Ireland.

comment by Martin // Monday, the 8th of February, 2010, at 8:41 in the evening

Yeah, I got the impression powerful dark wizards did show up when there was a devastating war, or at least when there was one with a clear evil. WWII is easy because pretty much everyone agrees Hitler=Bad. Napoleon's old enough now that Napoleon=Bad is easy enough. In the French Revolution, you can take your pick of Death Eater-ish types. During the civil war one can easily assume a schism in the wizarding community and/or wizards being picked on by muggles who confuse them for papists or what have you. I'm sure it's all covered in the History of Magic class, which she's careful to dismiss as "easily the most boring class" right from the start in book one. Also she does refer to wizards being unhappy about witch trials, so presumably for quite some time wizards were just trying to obfuscate themselves. Hogsmeade doesn't show up on maps. How can you draft people who don't exist? As to how Ireland and England and Scotland and Wales are ruled in magical terms, I don't know, but it could plausibly work if the fighting is all about muggles there. Suppose the IRA is the menace linked with dark wizards. It makes the romantic vision of the Irish Rebel rather... well... probably best she didn't say anything about it if that's the case, I think. Wouldn't want all the Irish Americans and Republicans getting livid.

comment by Julia // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 12:58 at night

Thanks, Julia, that's about what I was going to say. I was also going to suggest that maybe the presence of the wizard war might...agitate the muggles into war. Maybe if Grindewald wasn't doing his Grindewald thing in Potter-verse, Hitler would have failed out of art school and gone on to be a small unpleasant man who was just small and unpleasant, but didn't commit genocide and try to take over the world.

comment by Tori // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 8:13 in the morning

I like the idea of the presence of evil wizards causing evil events, so you have great evil wizards, perhaps unconcisouly, creating chaos and malice where they go. Although I suppose the immediate flaw is what great evil was Voldemort causing by his presence? If things are to be believed, Voldemort is the worst of the worst, and so the residual evil should have leaked out all over the place. There haven't been great big huge wars in the last 30 years, so I just don't see it. Ah, well.

comment by Neil // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 9:20 in the morning

Voldemort...caused Vietnam, Global Warming, and 9/11 and the Bush Regime. What, was that a very American list?

comment by Tori // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 10:03 in the morning

Its not that its too American, I just don't think its as "evil" as, say, World War II. Although I like the idea of Global Warming being an outcome of evil wizards. Too bad it hasn't stopped with his defeat.

comment by Neil // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 10:17 in the morning

Tori, Voldemort was defeated before 9/11 or Bush. Harry was born in 1980. This is where I make whatever sound and accompanying hand gesture is to complete dorkiness as "swish" is to basketball.

comment by Martin // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 5:56 in the afternoon

Fine, then, Martin, I was going with movie time line rather than book time line. Vietnam and Global Warming, then.

comment by Tori // Tuesday, the 9th of February, 2010, at 10:17 in the evening

Vietnam started before Voldemort came to power. Oh... SNAP! (Exploding snap!)

Also, I just read all seven books in seven days. Finished at 11:59 PM precisely. And now I have nothing to do for the next two snow days.

comment by Martin // Wednesday, the 10th of February, 2010, at 12:04 at night

Aren't you working on rewriting a book? Or, read all the Guards books in Discworld or something.

comment by Tori // Wednesday, the 10th of February, 2010, at 8:02 in the morning

So the seventh book actually makes it pretty clear that Grindelwald's rise had very little effect on British wizardry, that most Britons don't even realize how bad he was, and that Dumbledore totally ignored Grindelwald for the first five years of his reign. And despite the clear master racey parallels between Grindelwald and Hitler, it seems to me that (if anything) Grindelwald took his inspiration from Hitler, not vice versa. By the time Grindelwald came to meet with Dumbledore—long before he did anything more than plan out his rise to power—Hitler had been Chancellor for most of a decade, had passed the Nuremberg Laws, had kicked off the Final Solution with Kristallnacht, and had probably (though there's some wiggle room in the book's chronology) invaded Poland and started the war. Really it looks to me not like WWII was an echo of the Wizarding war between Grindelwald and Dumbledore, but rather that Grindelwald came of age in a nation seething with anger and bigotry and absorbed some of that sentiment, turning it not against the Jews but the Muggles—and that, by sheer coincidence only, he was defeated the same year Hitler was. Grindelwald may have used the war to cover for some of his actions, but he didn't start the war, his goals were irreconcilable with Hitler's, and his activities were limited to Central Europe.

(Side note: It's interesting to see how Dumbledore's total isolation from the Muggle world led to his greatest mistake. By 1940, any British Muggle intellectual would have known exactly what Grindelwald was proposing and what it meant, and would have seen right through "for the greater good". A decade earlier they might have fallen under that spell just like Dumbledore did, but by 1940 no one would have been able to claim ignorance of what "for the greater good" really meant. Perhaps that was why Dumbledore always followed the Muggle news so diligently in later years.)

comment by Martin // Wednesday, the 10th of February, 2010, at 2:42 in the afternoon

Martin, you are over-analyzing. Rowling rarely stands up to strong analysis.

comment by Tori // Wednesday, the 10th of February, 2010, at 3:06 in the afternoon

I'm over-analyzing because it's fun. It's the quintessential nerd pastime.

comment by Martin // Wednesday, the 10th of February, 2010, at 3:17 in the afternoon

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